Post subject: All miracles can be explained by science
Hi Ahmed,
I hope you remember me.
I have posted a new post in FFI, which i wanted to post here as well
....
Many of us heard about the Miracle of Jesus (PBUH) birth.
How can any one proof scientifically that Jesus born without a Father. which is unscientific.
Quran has answers to all Questions. Quran explains that jesus had a father.
Proof 1
Surah 36 , Verses 36
Surah 49 , Verses 13 Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge. :(Pickthall)
This Clearly States that all Humans are born through pairs. If Jesus born with out a father , then this verses should have "Except Jesus"
Proof 2
Surah 32 , Verses 8
Surah 18 , Verses 37
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67 Then He made his(Human) seed from a draught of despised fluid;:(Pickthall)
According to this all Humans are made with the fluid(Sperm). If Jesus dint have a father, then this verses should have "Except Jesus"
Proof 3
Surah 35 , Verses 43
Surah 50 , Verses 29
Surah 06 , Verses 115
Surah 10 , Verses 64 .... But no change wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing).
This states that Allah will never change his laws, his words and the way he deals with everything. Then why would he create Jesus with out father by changing his laws and his way.
Proof 4 Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87
That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.:(Yousuf Ali)
All the messengers mentioned in this have a father. If Jesus dint had a father , why his name is here.
Proof 5
Surah 3 , Verses 59
Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
Surah 18 , Verses 37 (Other Humans)
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67
Surah 30 , Verses 20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely :(Pickthall)
Jesus and Adam are likely because they both(including all humans) are made of Dust, not because they both doesn't have a father.
Proof 6
Surah 19 , Verses 21 (Birth of Jesus) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
Surah 19 , Verses 9 (Birth of Yahya) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I createdthee before, when thou wast naught.
Surah 3 , Verses 59 (Birth of Adam) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. Surah 40 , Verses 68 (Birth of All Humans) . It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is
Jesus is created by Allah saying "Be". That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because every body who has a father are also created by Allah saying "Be"
Proof 7
Surah 66 Verses 12 (Birth of Jesus) And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout.
Surah 15 , Verses 29 (Birth of Adam)
Surah 38 , Verses72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
Surah 32 , Verses 9 (Birth of all Humans)
Surah 42 , Verses 52 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!
If Jesus is Born by Allahs spirit , That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because everyone are born by allahs spirit.
Proof 8
Surah 19 , verses 20
Surah 3 , verses 47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Surah 19 , Verses 6 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
Surah 19 , Verses 22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
Mary was untouched and Allah Gave her good thoughts of her son, Then she went against the rituals of the temple and married and moved to a remote place.
Proof 9
Surah 21 , Verses 91
Surah 66 , Verses 12 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.
Surah 19 , Verses 28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste
This states that Mary's mother was not unchaste , that means she was chaste. Being a mother(Not virgin) she is chaste (Decent).
In Both the verses Chaste means Decent but not virgin
Proof 10
Surah 66 , Verses 10,11,12 10 Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"
11 And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity ; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout .
In surah 66 , during the discussion about the prophets wife, Allah give example of four wifes (Believers and Not Believers).Because mary is married, her name is taken in such an examples with other wifes.
Posted:
Sun 27 Apr, 2008 7:13 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello mate
I do remeber you of couorse, I have a very strong long term memory Alhamdullelah
Look I have no problem that ost scietific miracles can be exsplained by science however not all the miracles in the Quran are scientifc and in this case science has noothig to do with it
I will read you comment thorougly and add my replies to it, if I had anything to say
Salam
Posted:
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 6:44 am
QuranandScience Pawn
Status:
Faith:
Joined: Sep 07, 2007
Posts: 83
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Hello mate
Look I have no problem that ost scietific miracles can be exsplained by science however not all the miracles in the Quran are scientifc and in this case science has noothig to do with it
I will read you comment thorougly and add my replies to it, if I had anything to say
Salam
Sure , I will wait for your reply.
I still say All Miracles in Quran can be explained by science (Allahs Laws).
Posted:
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 7:48 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
QuranandScience wrote:
Hi Ahmed,
I hope you remember me.
Salam
I do remember you, in fact this new thread that you opened has to be the continuity of this thread that you opened a few months back and just didn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t care to explain to us your theories:
I have posted a new post in FFI, which i wanted to post here as well
I have seen it, and inshaalllah will copy my reply in there
QuranandScience wrote:
�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¦
Many of us heard about the Miracle of Jesus (PBUH) birth.
Hold on a second, because it seems you are totally confused in here, what is the miracle of Jesus?
Do you mean when he revived the dead and made live birds from clay etc etc?
If yes, then please take the stand and explain to us those miracles of Jesus scientifically
But If you mean by the miracle of Jesus is what is well known for thousands of years about him that he was born without a father then I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sorry to tell you, the miracle birth of Jesus was not a miracle of Jesus rather a miracle of Allah, Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with it, but hey, let me assume for a flawed argument sake that him being born without a father was a miracle of his miracles, then you need to explain to us scientifically how a human can be produced without a father.
See, that is what you need to do , however what you did is something very stupid that only indicates how confused you are, let me explain:
1) You must fail trying to explain it scientifically because science has no explanation for that
2) So you come up with absolute non sense that the miracle was not that he was born without a father rather the miracle that he was born with a father and a mother, then you try hard to manipulate some Quran verses to suit your confused desires
3) Now if you really can prove that Jesus had a father thinking that this is your scientific explanation to his miracle birth then you slam dunked youself, because there should be no miracle any more, the miracle birth suppose to be that he has no father, hahahahahahahahahahah
See what I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m talking about, let me bloody say it again:
1) You are saying that all miracles in the Quran can be explained scientifically
2) You started with one miracle which is, the miracle of Jesus birth
3) Now if you will prove that he had a father then we have no bloody miracle, because he would have been born normally from a father and a mother, therefore, which bloody miracle that you are trying to explain scientifically by alleging that Jesus had a father?
The above is enough to prove your confusion and is also enough for me to salvage my time and don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t look at what you said next because I proved to everyone it has to be baseless, or at best, based on your evident confusion. Trying to prove that a miracle is not a mircale while at the same time suggesting that it is a miracle that can be explained scientifically
I hope you can see your flawed argument above.
QuranandScience wrote:
How can any one proof scientifically that Jesus born without a Father. which is unscientific.
So according to you the whole thing is not really to prove a miracle scientifically rather to prove that a miracle was not a miracle because you failed to prove it scientifically
What load of crap that is, man?
QuranandScience wrote:
Quran has answers to all Questions. Quran explains that jesus had a father.
The Quran never said that Jesus had a father you liar, sorry, I can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t bear those who unshamely lie about the Quran and you are certainly one of them
The most logical and strongest of all refutes in the Quran to this silly allegation by you is simply the Quran never referred to Jesus that he had a father.
We have seen how prophet Yehya was dutiful to his parents but when we read the same about Jesus we see that he was dutiful to HIS MOTHER ONLY, his father was never mentioned, let me show you a new examples
The Quran tells us the following about prophet Solomon:
So he smiled, wondering at her word, and said: My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I should do good such as Thou art pleased with, and make me enter, by Thy mercy, into Thy servants, the good ones. [The Quran ; 27:19]
فَتَبَسَّمَ ضَاحِكًا مِّن قَوْلِهَا وَقَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَدْخِلْنِي بِرَحْمَتِكَ فِي عِبَادِكَ الصَّالِحِينَ (19)
-> We can clearly read that Solomon said to Allah : My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, , can you see that Solomon asked Allah to grant him that Solomon should be grateful for AllahÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s favours which Allah bestowed on him and HIS PARENTS. it looks in Arabic like this: عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ , i.e upon me and upon my parents
Allah then told us that we should say the same as Solomon said in regards to being grateful for His favours upon us and upon our parents, Allah used the SAME EXACT WORDS used in verse 27:19 عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ, ie. upon me and upon my parents:
And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit. [The Quran ; 46:15]
وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ إِحْسَانًا حَمَلَتْهُ أُمُّهُ كُرْهًا وَوَضَعَتْهُ كُرْهًا وَحَمْلُهُ وَفِصَالُهُ ثَلَاثُونَ شَهْرًا حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَبَلَغَ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً قَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ وَأَصْلِحْ لِي فِي ذُرِّيَّتِي إِنِّي تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَإِنِّي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ (15)
-> Let's look at both identical parts from both verses in Arabic under each other again: And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents, this should mean that if we thank Allah for His favours upon us then we should also thank Him for His favours upon OUR PARENTS: عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ , i.e. upon me and upon my parents
See how the words by Wise Solomon is almost the same as what Allah is teaching us to say:
وَقَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ, by Solomon in 27:19
وَقَالَ رَبِّ أَوْزِعْنِي أَنْ أَشْكُرَ نِعْمَتَكَ الَّتِي أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ وَأَنْ أَعْمَلَ صَالِحًا تَرْضَاهُ, by everyone in 46:15
i.e. he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents,
HOWEVER in 5:110, when it came to Isa, IT WAS SAID TO HIM BY ALLAH DIFFERENTLY:
When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. [The Quran ; 5:110]
إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ (110)
-> Can you see how it is said differently when it came to Jesus: يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ, i.e. O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, can you spot the difference or you are still blind and confused?
This very strong Quran evidence must put the likes of you to shame for their clear cut ignorance regarding the Arabic Quran:
Let me summarize the above killer of an argument again
The favours of Allah were logically given to the followings:
1) To Solomon and his Parents 27:19 عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ, upon myself and upon my parents
2) To All of us and our parents 46:15 عَلَيَّ وَعَلَى وَالِدَيَّ, upon myself and upon my parents
3) To Isa and HIS MOTHER 5:110 عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ, i.e. upon you and upon you mother
Why Allah used the same words with Jesus but only mention HIS MOTHER?
It seems there is one and perfect answer to that simple Question:
JESUS HAS NO FATHER AS THE QURAN CONSISTANTLY INDICATED
Let me now see what evidences you brought on the table (despite I don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t need to do that any more because for me, what I said so far is enough to slam dunk your crap):
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 1 Surah 36 , Verses 36
Surah 49 , Verses 13
Let me bring the verses in Arabic:
Glory be to Him Who created pairs of all things, of what the earth grows, and of their kind and of what they do not know. [The Quran ; 36:36]
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (36)
O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. [The Quran ; 49:13]
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ (13)
QuranandScience wrote:
Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge. :(Pickthall)
But the above English translation by Pickthall is only for 36:36, where is the translation for 49:13? Anyway, none of these verses supports your allegation
-> 36:36 clearly says that Allah created pairs of what the earth grows and also He created pairs of the humans, Jesus is one of those pairs i.e. a male in (male-female pair), how the hell this verse can support your allegation?
-> 49:13 says nothing to support your allegation, it only confirms what we read in 36:36, i.e. in 36:36 Allah told us that He created pairs of the humans, however He did not tell us in 36:36 what sort of human pairs that is, possibly black and white, possibly midgets and non midgets, etc etc, in 49:13 however He told us what sort of human pair we are: We have created you of a male and a female, I can clearly see how you are trying to manipulate it , the Arabic words means that Allah created males and females of the humans and that was the case with Jesus who was one from among one of the pairs (males), however what you are trying to do shiftly is to allege that Allah created humans from the male and the female as if a male and a female are always required for the creation of a new human , hahahahha, it is not going to work with me pal, in Arabic we can commonly say the following to mean the same, the one on the left side is the one appeared in 49:13:
Inna Khalqnakum Zakr Wa Ontha = Inna Khalqnakum Min Zakr Wa Ontha
As you can see above the only difference is the word مِّن , Min, which literally means From
The English translation to the above should be:
We created you male and female = We created you from a male and a female
Let me show you a clear Quran example that must demolish your confusion:
YUSUFALI: It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness, then gave (you) strength after weakness, then, after strength, gave (you weakness and a hoary head: He creates as He wills, and it is He Who has all knowledge and power.
PICKTHAL: Allah is He Who shaped you out of weakness, then appointed after weakness strength, then, after strength, appointed weakness and grey hair. He createth what He will. He is the Knower, the Mighty.
SHAKIR: Allah is He Who created you from a state of weakness then He gave strength after weakness, then ordained weakness and hoary hair after strength; He creates what He pleases, and He is the Knowing, the Powerful. [The Quran ; 30:54]
اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن ضَعْفٍ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ مِن بَعْدِ ضَعْفٍ قُوَّةً ثُمَّ جَعَلَ مِن بَعْدِ قُوَّةٍ ضَعْفًا وَشَيْبَةً يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْقَدِيرُ (54)
-> I brought all three translators above because I believe only Y A is the most accurate in translating the Arabic words خَلَقَكُم مِّن ضَعْفٍ , Khalaqakum Min Daaf, the three translators above translated it as follow:
YUSUFALI: It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness,
PICKTHAL: Allah is He Who shaped you out of weakness,
SHAKIR: Allah is He Who created you from a state of weakness
See how Pickthal and Shakir faulted, it is impossible that the creation of man is out of weakness, any creation even a fly is a mighty act indeed, i.e. Allah created us weak, that is obvious because when we are newly born, we can not survive on our own, until we grow and gain strength, see how the verse described such prosses of creation enforced on mankind : It is Allah Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness, then gave (you) strength after weakness, then, after strength, gave (you weakness and a hoary head, therefore Pickthal & Shakir translations must be dismissed, and Yusuf Ali one must be the only one to uphold, i.e. the Arabic words خَلَقَكُم مِّن ضَعْفٍ , Khalaqakum Min Daaf means: Who created you in a state of (helpless) weakness, exactly as: إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى , Inna Khalaqnakum Min Zakar Wa Ontha, i.e. We created you male and female
The above is confirmed when we read the following verse:
Allah desires that He should make light your burdens, and man is created weak. [The Quran ; 4:28]
يُرِيدُ اللّهُ أَن يُخَفِّفَ عَنكُمْ وَخُلِقَ الإِنسَانُ ضَعِيفًا (28)
-> See how compelling my argument is: above we read وَخُلِقَ الإِنسَانُ ضَعِيفًا, Wa Kholiqa Al Insan Daaifa, i.e. and man is created weak , which is equal to خَلَقْنَاكُم ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى , Khalaqnakum Zakar Wa Ontha without the Min
From the above compelling evidences:
إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى , Inna Khalaqnakum Min Zakar Wa Ontha, as it appeared in 49:13 must mean We created you male and female, not we created you from a male and a female.
And even if I take it as your flawed understanding that it means We created you FROM a male and a female, i.e. a male and a female are required for another humans to be created, you still have no argument because Allah is the law maker and He can change any law at any time He wishes without being questionable, even those who may go to the garden may be expelled later if Allah wants, as He told is in the Quran, and even those who may go to hell, they may exit from it if Allah wills, according to what He told us in the Quran zillion times that HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS WITHOUT BEING QUESTIONABLE, Indeed Allah did it all when it came to creating mankind, if we look at the only 4 possibilities of creating a human we see that Allah did it all:
A human can only come from the following possibilities:
1) From nothing: He created Adam from nothing
2) From a man only: He created Adam's partner from Adam
3) From a woman only: He created Jesus from Mary
4) From a man and a woman: He created the rest of humanity
Why you think that Allah can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t do all the abovet?, it seems you are very ignorant to what the God should be, I must excuse you for that.
QuranandScience wrote:
This Clearly States that all Humans are born through pairs. If Jesus born with out a father , then this verses should have Except Jesus
Hahahahah, please go and learn the Quran first before you dare to manipulate it to suit your desires, you can do this with others on FM, you can do this with others on FFI but you will never be able to do it with me on any place, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sure that many goons on FFI saw how stupid your arguments are, and I know well who you are and I know well that you will keep insisting on your crap but as you should know me well too that after I finish my slam, your crap will be dismissed and I will only discuss with you any other Quran miracle that you want to prove that is scientifically, a miracle according to science, or possibly you want to prove that it is not a miracle from the first place and in such case a fool like you thinks that he explained it scientifically, sorry, could not hold it
I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m not really sure, mate, if I want to look at further made up or cooked Barbie evidences, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m really wasting my time and I believe I have done enough to demolish your crap through your first proof.
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 2 Surah 32 , Verses 8
Surah 18 , Verses 37
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67 Then He made his(Human) seed from a draught of despised fluid;:(Pickthall)
According to this all Humans are made with the fluid(Sperm). If Jesus dint have a father, then this verses should have Except Jesus
Possibly Allah sent an angel to deliver such sperm to her?, I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sure that you know well the Quran said so, in fact Marium herself said that NO MAN HAS TOUOCHED HER, so why the hell you are promoting a lie and say that a male human has slept with her? Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s look at the verse:
She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is. [The Quran ; 3:47]
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)
-> See what Mary said: رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ , i.e. My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? , and here is the answer, a miracle from Allah: قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ , i.e. He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is. , i.e. a miracle, the miracle you want to prove it scientifically by proving that it was not a miracle rather Mary slept with an unknown man, let me ask you pal, why you are acting like the Jews and accusing her with BAGHI I.e. sleeping with an unknown man while she clearly said that no man has touched her?, are you that low as some of Jews have been?
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 29 Apr, 2008 3:45 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posted:
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:14 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Here is the full story for ya and I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sure if you take it to a kafir child next door, he should tell you that you are so confused and dumb:
16: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;
17: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
18: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).
19: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.
20: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?
21: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.
-> See how you made yourself look like a fool, let me walk you through the above 7 verses from Marium sura:
-> Allah is telling us about Mary: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place; this verse clearly told us that she sought refuge in a place that NO ONE OF HER FAMILY was with her, i.e. SHE WAS ALONE, now, we are told that a messenger from Allah (who has to be an angel) was sent to her, and for her to see this angel, the angel morphed into a shape of a human: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man., she became scared because she sought refuge alone in a place away from any member of her family: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil)., the angel who is looking like well-made man explained to her what he is doing here: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy., see you freak liar, this is what I call 1the Quran 19 miracle hahahahahahah, verse 19:19 slam dunked you, you clear cut 19ers sect follower, your lie that she married an unknown man to conceive Jesus has been exposed because verse 19:19 clearly told us that an angel who was made to look like a man was sent from Allah to make her pregnant with a pure boy (Jesus), what a slam that is man. And again Mary stated that NO MAN TOUCHED HER, how she can be pregnant with a boy?: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? , how clear can this be man?, SHE SAID: NO MAN HAS TOUCHED ME, please go again and ask a kafir child what that suppose to mean, now the angel told her: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me:, for you mister confusion, it means Allah made her married all of a sudden to an unknown man, hahahah, yep it is easy to marry off women. It was easy on Allah because It is so easy on Him to create anything He wants, He indeed achieved all possible 4 probabilities for a human to be created as I explained earlier and because creating a human from a woman only, and because Jesus was only that human and his mother was the only woman to carry a child without a man touching her, then both of them must be a sign to all humanity and this is exactly what the rest of the verse is telling us: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed. in another verse, Allah told us that both of them are signs to all humanity, straight after what was said by the angel, she became pregnant, the verse never told us your crap that she married an unknown man who left her to face the malice jews with their accusation that she must slept with an unknown man, same filthy accusation as that you spew now: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.
Now I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m asking you, where exactly in the complete story above that she married an unknown man?
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 3 Surah 35 , Verses 43
Surah 50 , Verses 29
Surah 06 , Verses 115
Surah 10 , Verses 64 .... But no change wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing).
It�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s really silly that you refer to many verses then you post the translation of one verse, this tells me that you are a lazy bum who does not even want to work hard to prove his manipulations, again it is not going to work with me, I have to bring the Arabic verses to confirm that you are talking crap:
(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it. Then should they wait for aught except the way of the former people? For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah. [The Quran ; 35:43]
اسْتِكْبَارًا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَكْرَ السَّيِّئِ وَلَا يَحِيقُ الْمَكْرُ السَّيِّئُ إِلَّا بِأَهْلِهِ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا (43)
-> What are you trying to say exactly?, possibly that: فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا , i.e. you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah. , indeed, and the course of Allah as we were just told in verse 19:19 that Allah has created Jesus from a woman only
My word shall not be changed, nor am I in the least unjust to the servants. [The Quran ; 50:29]
مَا يُبَدَّلُ الْقَوْلُ لَدَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا بِظَلَّامٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ (29)
-> Possibly you are picking on: مَا يُبَدَّلُ الْقَوْلُ لَدَيَّ , i.e. My word shall not be changed , exactly and Allah words inserted in Mary was not changed and Jesus was created from a woman only via the word Be, and Jesus (son of Mary) was.
And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing. [The Quran ; 6:115]
وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقًا وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ (115)
-> IÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??m sure you are picking on: لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ , i.e. there is none who can change His words , this is actually a flawed translation, it should be there is no CHANGER to His words, now, logically speaking the verse does not say Allah can not change His words, however He never changed His word that He inserted in Mary via a messenger from Him, that ward was Be and Jesus was.
They shall have good news in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement. [The Quran ; 10:64]
لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَى فِي الْحَياةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (64)
-> Look, you are repeating a baseless argument, Allah did not change His word regarding Jesus birth, it was planned by Allah all along to create Jesus as the only human to be created from a woman only, that is why he and his mother have to be signs for all humanity
QuranandScience wrote:
This states that Allah will never change his laws, his words and the way he deals with everything. Then why would he create Jesus with out father by changing his laws and his way.
His laws were not changed you manipulator, it is all based on your flawed understating to 49:13 that Allah may create humans from a man and a woman only. I clearly exposed your lack of Arabic and proved it using the Arabic Quran as well proved that Allah achieved all 4 possibilities of creating a human, indeed you have the mind of a kafir which mean a disbeliever, i.e. DISBELIEVES WHAT THE GOD SAYS.
Your crap above must be dismissed
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 4 Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87
That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.:(Yousuf Ali)
QuranandScience wrote:
All the messengers mentioned in this have a father. If Jesus dint had a father , why his name is here.
What a stupid argument that is, it confirms how confused and desperate you are, then why Adam was included with all those prophets who had fathers and mothers in the following verse, you fool:
Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations. [The Quran ; 3:33]
إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَى آدَمَ وَنُوحًا وَآلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَآلَ عِمْرَانَ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ (33)
-> See how your confusion and manipulation is robbing off my time, well IÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??m sure you have no reply to this: آدَمَ وَنُوحًا وَآلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَآلَ عِمْرَانَ, i.e. Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran , do all the messengers and prophets mentioned in this verse have fathers and mothers?
See how your stupidity slam dunked you.
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 5 Surah 3 , Verses 59
Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 18 , Verses 37 (Other Humans)
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67
Surah 30 , Verses 20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely :(Pickthall)
QuranandScience wrote:
Jesus and Adam are likely because they both(including all humans) are made of Dust, not because they both doesn't have a father.
No
Adam and Jesus are alike can mean many things:
1) Both are humans
2) Both are prophets
3) Both are males
4) Both are chosen by Allah
5) Both have no father
6) Both are made of dust
See
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 6 Surah 19 , Verses 21 (Birth of Jesus) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
Lol, your translation is flawed above and must be dismissed, Aya can only mean one thing, a sign
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 19 , Verses 9 (Birth of Yahya) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I createdthee before, when thou wast naught.
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 3 , Verses 59 (Birth of Adam) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: Be. And he was.
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 40 , Verses 68 (Birth of All Humans) . It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, Be, and it is
QuranandScience wrote:
Jesus is created by Allah saying Be. That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because every body who has a father are also created by Allah saying Be
Lol, the Quran does not say that he had no father because he was created via the word Be, rather he had no father because:
1) No male human touched Mary
2) Allah sent an angel who morphed into a shape of a human to deliver to her what is required to make her pregnant with Jesus
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 7 Surah 66 Verses 12 (Birth of Jesus) And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout.
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 15 , Verses 29 (Birth of Adam)
Surah 38 , Verses72 When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 32 , Verses 9 (Birth of all Humans)
Surah 42 , Verses 52 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!
QuranandScience wrote:
If Jesus is Born by Allahs spirit , That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because everyone are born by allahs spirit.
Well, the Quran clearly told us that Jesus had no father because:
1) No male human touched Mary
2) Allah sent an angel who morphed into a shape of a human to deliver to her what is required to make her pregnant with Jesus
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 8 Surah 19 , verses 20
Surah 3 , verses 47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
See, no mortal has touched her, therefore your lies and the lies of the Jews must be dismissed (which is, an unknown man touhed her and made her pregnant)
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 19 , Verses 6 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
See, she was totally alone and away from her family, her family must include the unknown husband you invented in your Barbie world
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 19 , Verses 22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
Now, according to you, she suppose to have met her unknown husband in that remote place where she suppose to be alone and away from her family, LOL
QuranandScience wrote:
Mary was untouched and Allah Gave her good thoughts of her son, Then she went against the rituals of the temple and married and moved to a remote place.
Where is the part about her marriage you liar?
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 9 Surah 21 , Verses 91
Surah 66 , Verses 12 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.
Another desperate argument, well Mary was VIRGIN because NO MORTAL TOUCHED HER
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 19 , Verses 28. O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste
Wrong, Baghia means Prostitute and not unchaste
QuranandScience wrote:
This states that Mary's mother was not unchaste , that means she was chaste. Being a mother(Not virgin) she is chaste (Decent).
In Both the verses Chaste means Decent but not virgin
Idiot
In both verses the words mean PROSTITUTE, i.e. they are telling her: why you have prostituted yourself while your mother was not a prostitute
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 10 Surah 66 , Verses 10,11,12 10 Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!
11 And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong;
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity ; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout .
QuranandScience wrote:
In surah 66 , during the discussion about the prophets wife, Allah give example of four wifes (Believers and Not Believers).Because mary is married, her name is taken in such an examples with other wifes.
Lol, another stupid and desperate proof, like your proof # 4
The 2 examples in these verses you confused are nothing but an example of believing and believing women , it has nothing to do with them being married you fool
I really wish that I have dismissed you and not replied to all your crap, you have presented absolutely noting but stupidity after stupidity, the likes of you are more shame to Islam than the Sunnis, the likes of you clearly show that Islam attracts the dumb and the stupids, which is not the case of course, this is because as far as I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m concerned and according to your own words, you are not a believer, i.e. you are not a Muslim because to be a Muslim you must be a Mumin (a believer) first, however you bluntly refuse to believe Allah, that He created Jesus without a father and to defend your disbelief you resorted to manipulating His own words telling us so, in fact you have committed two crimes at once, the likes of you are very much hated by me btw, and I have to be honest and let you know about such hate I have for the likes of you, I call you the freak minders
Salam
Posted:
Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:14 am
QuranandScience Pawn
Status:
Faith:
Joined: Sep 07, 2007
Posts: 83
Post subject:
I have just copy pasted from ffi. to complete the discussion
Let the Public Deside the truth.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
I do remember you, in fact this new thread that you opened has to be the continuity of this thread that you opened a few months back and just didn't care to
explain to us your theories
Thanks for replying me. and for your efforts made for this reply.
I appreciate you , that you have explained your view referring nicely to other versus of Quran.
I will try to explain peacefully, from the verses pointed by you. I dont want to be Harsh like you.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Now if you will prove that he had a father then we have no bloody miracle, because he would have been born normally from a father and a mother, therefore,
which bloody miracle that you are trying to explain scientifically by alleging that Jesus had a father?
I don't want to go to the Definition of Miracle what you take and what i take.
Just comment me on what I am Trying to proof. "Jesus had a Human Father"
AhmedBahgat wrote:
So according to you the whole thing is not really to prove a miracle scientifically rather to prove that a miracle was not a miracle because you failed to prove it scientifically
Science helps me to understand Quran much better. According to science Jesus should have a father. Which i am proving that Quran also tells the same thing.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
The Quran never said that Jesus had a father you liar, sorry, I can't bear those who unshamely lie about the Quran and you are certainly one of them
Exactly Quran doesn't even say Jesus is without a Father.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
The most logical and strongest of all refutes in the Quran to this silly allegation by you is simply the Quran never referred to Jesus that he had a father.
Ohh is this a Logical explanation for you. that if Quran never refers to Jesus father that means he doesnt have a father.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Let me summarize the above killer of an argument again:
The favours of Allah were logically given to the followings:
1) To Solomon and his Parents 27:19 , upon myself and upon my parents
2) To All of us and our parents 46:15upon myself and upon my parents
3) To Isa and HIS MOTHER 5:110 i.e. upon you and upon you mother
Why Allah use the same words with Jesus but only mention HIS MOTHER?
It seems there is one and perfect answer to that simple Question:
JESUS HAS NO FATHER AS THE QURAN CONSISTANTLY INDICATED
Thanks for Summarizing. You missed point (4)
1) Solomon - 27:19 (.....and (Solomon) said: My Lord, arouse me to be thankful for Thy favor where with Thou hast favored me and my parents, .....)
2)All of US- 46:15 (....he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks for the favor where with Thou hast favored me and my parents,..)
3) Jesus - 5:110 - (When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favor unto thee and unto thy mother;...)
4) Moses - 28:17 (He(Moses) said: My Lord! Forasmuch as Thou hast favored me,....)
If your Logic is true , why doesn't it suit here.
In Jesus case Allah refered his mother, so you understand that Jesus dint had a Father.
In Moses case Allah din't refered to any of the parents, does that mean Moses was with out a father and without a mother.?
AhmedBahgat wrote:
As you can see above the only difference is the word , Min, which literally means From
The English translation to the above should be:
We created you male and female = We created you from a male and a female
Hey you told me I am confused , Its clear that you are confused.How can they both be equal.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
A human can only come from the following possibilities:
1) From nothing: He created Adam from nothing
2) From a man only: He created Adam partner from Adam
3) From a woman only: He created Jesus from Mary
4) From a man and a woman: the rest of humanity
By Using the Quranic references you understand wrongly that Jesus was without a father. and using your wrong understanding you add a possibility(women Only) of Human creation. Then again you support later verses on these possibilities.
Proof 1 (About Pairs)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Why you think that Allah can't do that?, it seems you are very ignronat to what the God should be, I must excuse you for that. Allah is the law maker and He can change any law at any time He wishes without being questionable, even those who may go to the garden may be expelled later if Allah wants as He told is in the Quran, and even those who may go to hell, they may exist from it if Allah wills according o what he told us in the Quran zillions times that HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS WITHOUT BEIING QUESTIONABLE, Indeed Allah did it all when it comes to creating man,
His laws were not changed you manipulator , it is all based on your flawed understating to 49:13 that Allah may create humans from a man and a woman only. I clearly exposed your lack of Arabic and proved it using the Arabic Quran as well proved that Allah achieved all 4 possibilities of creating a human, indeed you have the mind of a kafir which mean a disbeliever, i.e. DISBELIEVES WHAT THE GOD SAYS.
Your words "..HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS WITHOUT BEIING QUESTIONABLE.... His laws were not changed..."
Thats what i am saying , He can do any thing. He does what he wants with out changing his laws. If he creates the new laws, these laws wont conflict previous laws.
Allah Clearly says 49:13 "..from a man and a woman only". that is a Law. Why do you refer to 4 possibilities, out of which you only created one of the posiibilieties by your wrong understanding of Jesus Birth.
Proof 2 (About Fluid)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Possibly Allah sent an angel to deliver such sperm to her?, I'm sure that you know well the Quran said so, in fact Marium herself said that NO MAN HAS TOUOCHED HER, so why the hell you promoting a liw and say that a male human has slept with her:, let's look at the verse:
Think before you are saying. you are telling the Angel is the father of Jesus.
I dont agree that Angel delivered sperm.
If I agree for few seconds that the Angel(which appeared to her a well-made man) was the Human father. Then you prooved my point "Jesus had a Human Father".
I dont agree because the Angel was only a Messenger. He just delivered the message not fluid.
19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
And i will explain you about "NO MAN HAS TOUOCHED HER" below.
Proof 3 (Allahs Laws)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Look, you are repeating a baseless argument, Allah did not change His word regarding Jesus birth, it was planned by Allah all along to create Jesus as the only human to be created from a woman only, that is why he and his mother has to be a sign for allhumanity
His laws were not changed you manipulator,.....
Why do you say such arguments, Created from a women only. which is conflicting these verses
49:13 "We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, "
See again, you created a possibility which never existed and refer to that possibility (Women Only).
Now the Question arrises why Jesus is refered to be a SIGN
Allahs Sign in Jesus (3:49)
Allah Sign in all Humans (30:20)
Allah Sign in jesoph (12:7)
12:7 Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (of Allah's Sovereignty) for the inquiring.
Does that Mean Joseph is also Sign , who doesnt have Father.
Proof 4 (Quranic Proof of Father)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 4
[color=green]
Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87
That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their Fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.:(Yousuf Ali)
All the messengers mentioned in this have a father. If Jesus dint had a father , why his name is here.
What a stupid argument that is, it confirms how confused and desperate you are, then why Adam was included with all those who have fathers and mothers in the following verse, you fool:
3:33 Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
6:87 clearly means that Jesus had a Father,
Adam name is not mentioned in this list because Adam din't have a father. This is the proof of all proofs that Jesus had a Father.
I could start and end the discussion on the above Verses
Surah 3 , Verse 33 Does not claim about fathers, It claims about decendants.. Yes Adam , Nuh and Ibrahim had Decendants.
Proof 5 (Comparision with Adam)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Adam and Jesus are alike can mean many things:
1) Both are humans
2) Both are prophets
3) Both are males
4) Both are chosen by Allah
5) Both have no father
6) Both are made of dust
Yes It can mean Any thing but not (5). Because Jesus Had a Father.
Proof 6 ("Be" and he is)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Lol, the Quran does not say that he had no father because he was created via the word Be, rather he had no father because:
1) No male human touched Mary
2) Allah sent an angel who morphed into a shape of a human to deliver to her what is required to make her pregnant with Jesus
Proof 7 (My Spirit)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Well, the Quran clearly told us that Jesus had no father because:
1) No male human touched Mary
2) Allah sent an angel who morphed into a shape of a human to deliver to her what is required to make her pregnant with Jesus
1) "No Male Human Touched Mary" , I have explained this below , please go on reading
2) Its Clear by now that the Angel was only a messenger.
Proof 8 (No Man has touched her)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
QuranandScience wrote:
Surah 19 , Verses 6 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
See, she was totally alone and away from her family, her family must include the unknown husband you invented in your Barbie world
Yes She is away from her Family, When she withdrew to a place in the East.
Here the Family does not include Husband , because she is not married yet. and she is not even giving birth.So she is Alone right now.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 8 Surah 19 , verses 20
Surah 3 , verses 47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
See, no mortal has touched her, therefore your lies and the lies of the Jews must be dismissed that a man has touched her
Check the order of the verses
19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
19:20 She said: "How Can I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
Understand here, She is not married and The Angel comes to give the Good news that she can have a son.
She gets surprised that How can she have a son, because she is not married.
That means She CAN have a son in future. At this point of time she is not married and not pregnant.
19:21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
So (it will be) , even this is future tense.
at even this point of time (She is not maried , and she is not pregnant)
19:22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a place.
Earlier she was away from family and was alone, then who is HIM.
she Concieved HIM (she become pregnant with HIM(Husband)). and she Moved with HIM(Husband) to a place.
This HIM cannot be the Angel , because Angel was only a messenger (19:19).
and This HIM cannot be Jesus, because he is still not born yet.
This clearly means that She got Married with HIM, and went to a far place with him.
19:23 And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
Jesus is still in her womb.
Proof 9 Chaste
AhmedBahgat wrote:
QuranandScience wrote:
Proof 9 Surah 21 , Verses 91
Surah 66 , Verses 12 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.
Another desperate argument, well Mary was VIRGIN because NO MORTAL TOUCHED HER
Idiot In both verses the words means PROSTITUTE, i.e. they are telling her: why you have prostituted yourself while your mother was not a prostitute
Mary was virgin when NO MORTAL TOUCHED HER(19:20) and when she got the news of her future child,
Because that scentence was in future tense, and she was not married at that time..
21:91 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.
She was Chaste , and Allah breathed his Spirit. as he does for every creation.
Observe This scentence is in Past tense
I agree unChaste means Prostitute, then Chaste is "Not a Prostitute" (need not be a virgin)
That does not mean she was a Virgin and she was not married.
In this past tense it is not written that she was untouched
Lol, another stupid and desperate proof, like your proof # 4 The 2 examples in these verse(Surah 66-10,11,12) you confused are nothing but an example of believing and believing women, it has nothing to do with them being married you fool
Why Mary's example is given along with 3 other Wifes. This could be one of the proofs to support my Argument.
********
Out of 10 , how many proofs you will reject.
Where as Proof 4 is the Direct evidence of the Father in Quran.
Posted:
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 12:34 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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QuranandScience wrote:
I have just copy pasted from ffi. to complete the discussion
Let the Public Deside the truth.
Sure, thanks for that, and as I have stated on FFI that I won't re-refute your re-refute, just leave it to the public and they have brains and can decide for themselves
QuranandScience wrote:
Out of 10 , how many proofs you will reject.
Honestly, NON
All your proofs, lack merit and intelligence , they are all motivated with your clear ignorance to the language of the Quran.
QuranandScience wrote:
Where as Proof 4 is the Direct evidence of the Father in Quran.
Your proof # 4 is the most idiotic of them all, and I clearly showed you and everyone that the Quran also grouped Adam who has neither father nor mother with many other prophets who had parents (3:33)
What I suggest to you is as follow:
You are only alleging that a miracle is not a miracle, this can never be a scientific explanation to a miracle, I thought that you are going to scientifically explain a miracle not deny a miracle. What you are doing now is simply denying the miracles
Let me try to be simple, do you know the miracle shown to Ibrahim when he asked Allah to show him how He can revive the dead?, in this miracle we are informed that Ibrahim was told by Allah to bring 4 birds then cut them to pieces then scatter all these mixed pieces on different mountains and hills then call the birds, they will come walking to him
Can you please explain the above miracle scientifically
Salam
Posted:
Wed 30 Apr, 2008 5:31 pm
QuranandScience Pawn
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
All your proofs, lack merit and intelligence , they are all motivated with your clear ignorance to the language of the Quran.
QuranandScience wrote:
Where as Proof 4 is the Direct evidence of the Father in Quran.
Your proof # 4 is the most idiotic of them all, and I clearly showed you and everyone that the Quran also grouped Adam who has neither father nor mother with many other prophets who had parents (3:33)
I think , You dont want to Believe, or you are not understanding it.
Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87 , It not only Groups messenger but Allah mentions FATHERS.
I recommend you to read one again
(...... and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their FATHERS.....)
In verses 3:33, Adam is grouped with the messengers who Has Decendents (OffSpring). Here it is not mentioned about Father. Where as Its clearly mention FATHERS in Surah 6:87.
Why Adam's name is not mentioned , in Surah 6 , verses 83,84,85,86,87. Because Adam doesnt have a Father.
Your comments on 3:33 is only for OffSpring, not the Father. When Allah groups anything , he mentions the reason.
Allah Grouped All the messengers in (Surah 6 , verses 83,84,85,86,87) except ADAM , And Allah Mentions about Their FATHERS.
Think for some time , and see the difference between both the verses.
I dont know how many times should i say FATHERS is mentioned in Quran 6:87.. There is no mention of FATHERS in 3:33. Cant you find this difference,
If you dont accept His FATHER by the words of QURAN in 6:87.
This Clearly Shows that, you are the ignorant. you want to believe what others are believing, but you don't want to accept the words of Allah 6:87 where "FATHERS" is mentioned.
See I am not a Jew , nor a Christian to disturb your Faith. I am also a Muslim, which i am trying to make you a better muslims by understanding these verses.
Please dont ignore : Read Surah 6:87 once again.
(...... and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their FATHERS.....)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Let me try to be simple, do you know the miracle shown to Ibrahim when he asked Allah to show him how He can revive the dead?, in this miracle we are informed that Ibrahim was told by Allah to bring 4 birds then cut them to pieces then scatter all these mixed pieces on different mountains and hills then call the birds, they will come walking to him
Can you please explain the above miracle scientifically
Salam
See I clearly said you every thing in Quran can be explained scientifically. Because Science Laws are the Laws created by Allah not by humans. I am not saying but Allah Himself clearly said hat he will not change his LAWS, Words, And the way of dealing.
And upon your request I am preparing for Miracle of MOSES STAFF. Let me complete This Miracle first and go to the Next Miracles.
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 2:17 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Hello Q & S
I'm interested to see how you explain a MIRACLE scientifically, I'm not interested to hear that a miracle is not a miracle, that is why I changed the miracle to reviving the dead as it happeded with Ibrahim birds, I knew that you will come and say the staff miracle is is not a miracle, so I want to see how you can scientifically explain a clear cut miracle that is mentioned in the Quran
can you please reply with Yes/No to the following:
Was reviving the dead birds that Ibrahim ripped to pieces a miracle?
Yes/No answer please
If your answer is Yes, then please take the stand and explain it us how torn pieces of flesh be revived scientifically?
cheers
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 7:50 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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QuranandScience wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
All your proofs, lack merit and intelligence , they are all motivated with your clear ignorance to the language of the Quran.
QuranandScience wrote:
Where as Proof 4 is the Direct evidence of the Father in Quran.
Your proof # 4 is the most idiotic of them all, and I clearly showed you and everyone that the Quran also grouped Adam who has neither father nor mother with many other prophets who had parents (3:33)
I think , You dont want to Believe, or you are not understanding it.
Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87 , It not only Groups messenger but Allah mentions FATHERS.
I recommend you to read one again
(...... and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their FATHERS.....)
In verses 3:33, Adam is grouped with the messengers who Has Decendents (OffSpring). Here it is not mentioned about Father. Where as Its clearly mention FATHERS in Surah 6:87.
Why Adam's name is not mentioned , in Surah 6 , verses 83,84,85,86,87. Because Adam doesnt have a Father.
Your comments on 3:33 is only for OffSpring, not the Father. When Allah groups anything , he mentions the reason.
Allah Grouped All the messengers in (Surah 6 , verses 83,84,85,86,87) except ADAM , And Allah Mentions about Their FATHERS.
Think for some time , and see the difference between both the verses.
I dont know how many times should i say FATHERS is mentioned in Quran 6:87.. There is no mention of FATHERS in 3:33. Cant you find this difference,
If you dont accept His FATHER by the words of QURAN in 6:87.
This Clearly Shows that, you are the ignorant. you want to believe what others are believing, but you don't want to accept the words of Allah 6:87 where "FATHERS" is mentioned.
See I am not a Jew , nor a Christian to disturb your Faith. I am also a Muslim, which i am trying to make you a better muslims by understanding these verses.
Please dont ignore : Read Surah 6:87 once again.
(...... and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their FATHERS.....)
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Let me try to be simple, do you know the miracle shown to Ibrahim when he asked Allah to show him how He can revive the dead?, in this miracle we are informed that Ibrahim was told by Allah to bring 4 birds then cut them to pieces then scatter all these mixed pieces on different mountains and hills then call the birds, they will come walking to him
Can you please explain the above miracle scientifically
Salam
See I clearly said you every thing in Quran can be explained scientifically. Because Science Laws are the Laws created by Allah not by humans. I am not saying but Allah Himself clearly said hat he will not change his LAWS, Words, And the way of dealing.
And upon your request I am preparing for Miracle of MOSES STAFF. Let me complete This Miracle first and go to the Next Miracles.
Again, your argument is very stupid and must expose your confusion and ignornace, let's look at the following verse that you think supports your crap:
And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers, and We chose them and guided them to a straight path. [The Quran ; 6:87]
-> So you confusion is telling you that because Jesus was mentioned in the previous verses with a bunch of other prophets who had fathers, and because 6:87 mentions the fathers of those prophets then Jesus must have a father.
Ahmed says:
Mate, what total crap is that?, well 6:87 didn't only mention their fathers, rather their fathers, their descendants and their brothers
Now I'm asking you:
Did Jesus have a brother?
Did Jesus have descendants of him?
If you answer No then you have been slam dunked
Cheers
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 8:03 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Here is how one of the kafirs on FFI, a woman named Brendalee replied to Q & S crap, clearly along with the sunnis and hadith worshippers, these sorts of confused Muslims makes us look really bad:
Brendalee of FFI said to Q & S:
Quranandscience wrote:
Many of us heard about the Miracle of Jesus (PBUH) birth.
How can any one proof scientifically that Jesus born without a Father. which is unscientific.
What a ridiculous statement for a Muslim to make! How can anyone prove scientifically that Jesus was born of a virgin mother, which is equally unscientific? And yet, the Quran says she was.
Quote:
Quran has answers to all Questions. Quran explains that jesus had a father.
Quran also explains that Jesus had a VIRGIN mother. How does it account for that UNSCIENTIFIC view?
Quote:
Proof 1
Surah 36 , Verses 36
Surah 49 , Verses 13 Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge. :(Pickthall)
This Clearly States that all Humans are born through pairs. If Jesus born with out a father , then this verses should have "Except Jesus"
Firstly, all things have NOT been created in pairs. Ever heard of a single celled amoeba? What about creatures that recreate themselves without a partner?
Yup. You're quite right. That verse is really messed up. The Quran agrees with Christianity that Mary was a virgin. So, what human was Jesus's father? We cannot expect the Quran to name this person as it claims that Jesus had NO earthly father but was born of a virgin.
Quote:
Proof 2
Surah 32 , Verses 8
Surah 18 , Verses 37
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67 Then He made his(Human) seed from a draught of despised fluid;:(Pickthall)
According to this all Humans are made with the fluid(Sperm). If Jesus dint have a father, then this verses should have "Except Jesus"
Yes, I covered that above. It should have said, "Except Jesus". Man, the Quran is sure messed up!
But I think it very funny that the Quran thinks that the sperm is the seed (EGG!) while never once mentioning the woman's EGG. Allah was pretty ignorant not to know that the sperm is the fertiliser and NOT the egg.
Quote:
Proof 3
Surah 35 , Verses 43
Surah 50 , Verses 29
Surah 06 , Verses 115
Surah 10 , Verses 64 .... But no change wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah.s way (of dealing).
This states that Allah will never change his laws, his words and the way he deals with everything. Then why would he create Jesus with out father by changing his laws and his way.
Allah is clearly confused. He seems to lie here (again). First he says that everything is created in pairs (not true); then he says he will never change, etc. but he clearly DOES since the Quran says Mary was a virgin mother.
Quote:
Proof 4 Surah 6 , Verses 83,84,85,86,87
That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous: And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.:(Yousuf Ali)
All the messengers mentioned in this have a father. If Jesus dint had a father , why his name is here.
You are absolutely right. It makes no sense at all that the Quran then claims that Mary was a virgin mother!
Quote:
Proof 5
Surah 3 , Verses 59
Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
Surah 18 , Verses 37 (Other Humans)
Surah 22 , Verses 5
Surah 35 , Verses 11
Surah 40 , Verses 67
Surah 30 , Verses 20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely :(Pickthall)
Jesus and Adam are likely because they both(including all humans) are made of Dust, not because they both doesn't have a father.
I think I will just have to take you word for this argument. Every proof is just a bonus now. You have convinced me that the Quran is utterly contradictory and full of tripe. Of course, I thought that before but I never expected to get such proofs from a Muslim!
Quote:
Proof 6
Surah 19 , Verses 21 (Birth of Jesus) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
Surah 19 , Verses 9 (Birth of Yahya) He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me, even as I createdthee before, when thou wast naught.
Surah 3 , Verses 59 (Birth of Adam) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. Surah 40 , Verses 68 (Birth of All Humans) . It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is
Jesus is created by Allah saying "Be". That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because every body who has a father are also created by Allah saying "Be"
Uh, huh....more Quranic blah,blah. How right you are about this messed up book!
Quote:
Proof 7
Surah 66 Verses 12 (Birth of Jesus) And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout.
Surah 15 , Verses 29 (Birth of Adam)
Surah 38 , Verses72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
Surah 32 , Verses 9 (Birth of all Humans)
Surah 42 , Verses 52 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!
If Jesus is Born by Allahs spirit , That does not mean he doesnt have a father, because everyone are born by allahs spirit.
You are labouring the point....
Quote:
Proof 8
Surah 19 , verses 20
Surah 3 , verses 47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Surah 19 , Verses 6 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
Surah 19 , Verses 22 So she conceived HIM, and she retired with HIM to a remote place.
Mary was untouched and Allah Gave her good thoughts of her son, Then she went against the rituals of the temple and married and moved with HIM to a remote place. Here Him is referred to her Husband
We know that Mary got married and had more children. This proves what exactly?
Quote:
Proof 9
Surah 21 , Verses 91
Surah 66 , Verses 12 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.
Surah 19 , Verses 28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste
This states that Mary's mother was not unchaste , that means she was chaste. Being a mother(Not virgin) she is chaste (Decent).
In Both the verses Chaste means Decent but not virgin
Nope sorry. These surah you have are not in order of occurance, and you know it. The fact that Mary is mentioned elsewhere in the Quran does not indicate that she THEN went off and got pregnant by a man.
Let's concentrate on the RELEVANT passage: Sura 3.47 "She said, My Lord, HOW CAN I HAVE A CHILD WHEN NO MORTAL MAN HATH TOUCHED ME?"
A good question that! Does the Angel tell her that she will soon be WED and THEN conceive a son? No, he certainly does not. He says that Allah can decree whatever he likes and just say BE. It continues:
"So (it will be). Allah CREATETH WHAT HE WILL. IF HE DECREETH A THING, HE SAITH UNTO IT ONLY: BE! AND IT IS."
It's cute the way you jump off to Sura 19 and then quote the verses out of order to make them appear to be a consequtive time account, from verse 20 to verse 6 and then verse 22 - because your point can be made only by arranging them at your pleasure. But it does not IN ANY WAY counter what is clearly expressed in Sura 3, verse 47, where Mary asks SPECIFICALLY how she can possibly have a baby when no man has touched her and the angel tells her that it will nevertheless be so because Allah merely has to will it so.
If you would like to claim that this verse means anything else then bring on the tafsirs! And I think you should explain this weird theory that the verse doesn't mean what it says when next you go to the Mosque.
Quote:
Proof 10
Surah 66 , Verses 10,11,12 10 Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"
11 And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity ; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout .
In surah 66 , during the discussion about the prophets wife, Allah give example of four wifes (Believers and Not Believers).Because mary is married, her name is taken in such an examples with other wifes.
Ah, so much work on your part, but Sura 3, verse 47 still says that Mary got pregnant by the will of Allah and not by a human man. Were this NOT so, the angel would have no reason to visit her and warn her. Had she gotten pregnant AFTER she was married, pregnancy would only be expected. If there were any angellic visitation THEN, it would have been merely to tell her that her son was special.
No, you see: the angel had to visit exactly when he did SOLELY for the purpose of warning her that she would be made pregnant by Allah's will and not by the usual method.
Sorry, but the Quran is quite clear in stating that Mary was a virgin made pregnant solely by Allah's will.
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 8:11 am
QuranandScience Pawn
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Now I'm asking you:
Did Jesus have a brother?
Did Jesus have descendants of him?[/b][/size]
If you answer No then you have been slam dunked
Cheers
Good, atleast now you understood the meaning of the Verse 6:87.
If Jesus Had a father according to this verse , Then Does he have Brother and Descendants?
An you even answered this , IF i Say NO , then i have been Slam Dunked.
But my Answer is YES, JESUS HAD FATHER , BROTHERS and OFFSPRINGS as well. Now as he has OFFSPRINGS that means He has a WIFE also.
Read it Again
(....and to all We gave favour above the nations: (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: ...6:87)
Are you telling these verses are wrong??? or you dont want to believe the Fact
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 8:29 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Here is a good reply by Brenda of FFI to Q & S crap:
Brendalee of FFI said to Q & S:
I can see why Ahmed so quickly lost patience with you. You must not think your attempts to guilt-trip him will do you much good. Ahmed and I have had some fairly lively debates - and I am well aware that he does not agree with my opinions. But there is surely one thing he detests more than "ignorant" kaffirs, and that is "ignorant Muslims."
You think that Allah, in addressing a GROUP and speaking of their "fathers" must literally mean the fathers of each and every person in the group in a personal way? Are you unaware that "fathers" is a term which often encompasses all generations, as in "Our fathers, in ancient days,..." or that it is used to apply to family lines?
It's strange that you would interpret a verse with such tunnel vision when you, at the same time TOTALLY ignore what the verse you yourself quoted says about Mary being a virgin made pregnant by Allah rather than man.
How do you manage that? Do you merely erase it from your mental processes as if it does not exist?
You said: "But the same thing God, says it, that means he is a knower of the unknown. If he says Children of the children, then there has to be childrens of your daughters children."
I will accept that line of argument, but what you do not take into account is that Allah does not SPECIFY. He says "to THEM" (the group), and to the fathers of the group (however many and in whatever sense he means by "their fathers") and "progeny" (however many the group produce), and brethren. Now, "Brethren" can mean relations, brothers in tribe, even in faith. It does not necessarily mean BIOLOGICAL brothers; but even if it refers to BIOLOGICAL brothers, it is still framed within the context of "however many there may be" and not in specifics.
Now I do not know what translation you are using, but they do somewhat differ. My Pickthall says: 6:87: "With some of their forefathers and their offspring and their brethren; and We chose them and guided them unto a straight path."
I'm sure Ahmed could favour you with the Arabic if he so chooses.
NONE of this in any way cancels out Sura 3:47. Ignoring what it so clearly says does not make it vanish. And IT says that Mary was a virgin mother impregnated by Allah's will and not by any man.
I thought it was the job of us Kaffirs to ridicule the "miracles" in the Quran. Please do not cease in your efforts, but try to make some sense when you do so. What we have is the laughable spectacle of you making the Quran seem to totally contradict itself, using 6:87 to argue that Jesus had a father while ignoring 3:47 which clearly says his mother was a virgin! (Sorry but getting this from a Muslim really appeals to my sense of ironic humour!)
Incidentally, Brenda is a female name in English speaking countries.
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 12:56 pm
QuranandScience Pawn
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Brendalee wrote:
NONE of this in any way cancels out Sura 3:47. Ignoring what it so clearly says does not make it vanish. And IT says that Mary was a virgin mother impregnated by Allah's will and not by any man.
Hi Brendalee, This is about Sura 3:47 , which you were talking about.
3:47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. if He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Hi Brendalee, These verses starts with the verse , "SHE SAID" . This sentence "NO MORTAL HATH TOUCHED ME" is said by her , because she was surprised that she is not married and how can she have a child.
That means She CAN have a son in future. At this point of time she is not married and not pregnant.
Check the scentence "SO (It will be)"
See Even Allah is saying this verses IT WILL BE, even this is a future tense.
And earlier in my previous post i have shown , only jesus is not the person who is born by "BE" or created by Allahs Spirit . every body is born by "BE" and created by Allahs Spirit. (Proof 6, 7)
After getting this news, Mary could have got married. and she moved with her husband to a different place. She get pregnant with HIM( This him is a normal Human).
This can be observed in this verses.
Surah 19 , Verses 22
So she conceived HIM, and she retired with HIM to a remote place.
Here HIM is referred to her Husband.
And in the next verse 19:23 , describes about Jesus Birth.
This clearly indicates IF in verses 19:23 , jesus is getting born , then the HIM mentioned in 19:22 , has to be her HUSBAND. and it has to be Jesus Father.
Conceived Means: to become pregnant with http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=conceive
AhmedBahgat wrote:
What verse you confused?6:87
then tell me mister, who are Jesus progney and brothers?
There is the clear indication in 6:87 about the Brothers and progney of JESUS. but there names are not mentioned in Quran. There are many people whos names are not mentioned in Quran.
I will give you some more proofs
3:36(... I have named her Mary, and Lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.)
Now Ahmed you believe Mary had only one SON that is Jesus.
in Surah 3:36 it is referred as her OFFSPRING
Its clear that Jesus was not the only son of MARY , she had other Sons also. Which is refered in 6:87 as brothers.
13:38 (And verily We sent messengers (to mankind) before thee, and We appointed for them wives and offspring, ....)
See even here allah is telling all the Messenger sent before , Had wifes and offspring.
There are many persosns whos names are not mentioned .
But its clear from 6:87,13:38,3:36 That Jesus Had Father , Brothers , Wifes and OffSpring.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
see, a miracle is called a miracle because there is no explanation for it, however Q & S is telling us the Miracles can be explained scietifically and as you know if you can explain something strange then it can't be strange any more, i.e. Q & S is telling us that the Quran has no miracles
You are very much afraid that there wont be any miracles in Quran if every thing can be explainable.
See , Now i explain you what is MIRACLE.
Miracle will be Miracle after the explanation.
Miracle of the Miracles is Quran can explain all Miracles.
Any thing which can be considered as a work of God , can be a Miracle.
Every Day you get to eat food, even this is the work of God. Its a Miracle
You have grown from a small babby to an Adult, even this is the work of God. Its a Miracle.
You getting born from your parents , even this is the work of God, Its a Miracle.
Jesus getting born from his parents, even this is the work of God, its a Miracle.
Quranic Miracle are the work of ALLAH, and Allah never changes his words, laws and dealing with anything.
Quranic Miracle are the work of Allah , and it can be proved from Science , Because science laws are created by Allah. even though the Miracle can be explained, it will still remain Miracle. Because Miracle is any work done by God.
People are facinated by unscientific stories , and they started believing it as a Miracle. Allahs Miracle cant be unscientific.
I hope , i tried my best to explain what is the Meaning of Quranic Miracle.
Always i keep the Post Title as "ALL MIRACLES CAN BE EXPLAINED BY SCIENCE".
In my every post , Instead of proving scientific, i try to proof that miracles are not UNSCIENTIFIC. that in turn means , I have explained the Miracle in a scientific way, by accepting all the science laws(Allahs laws)
You should be Happy that , there is no Unscientific Miracles in Quran. All are Scientific Miracle. Which proves, none other than ALLAH can write such a book.
Posted:
Thu 01 May, 2008 2:22 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Q & S
Stop manipulating the Quran verses to make it suit your confusion, 3:47 never said the following:
She said: My Lord! How shall a child be for me and a human has not touched me? He said: That is how Allah creates what He wishes; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is. [Al Quran ; 3:47]
-> See what she said: رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَر, i.e. My Lord! How shall a child be for me and a human has not touched me?
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(Sorry but getting this from a Muslim really appeals to my sense of ironic humour!)
